Beantwoord

Doorschakelen mobiel naar +31970 nummer

  • 6 juni 2017
  • 27 reacties
  • 11088 keer bekeken

Hi,

I have a private SIM card from KPN with a +316 number.
However, in my company we have a mobile phone pool with +31970 numbers
which, as far as I know, are intended for M2M communications.
However, those numbers have activated voice services and can be dialed.

On one of those +31970 numbers we have a custom voice mail service running.
However, my private +316 number from KPN does not allow me to setup call
forwarding to +31970 numbers :(

I find it strange that KPN does not allow to forward calls to valid
phone numbers in the Netherlands, even they are officially intended for M2M use.
At the same time call forwarding is allowed to any foreign number.
Don't you find it controversial?

Is there any solution to this problem?

Best,
Alex
icon

Beste antwoord door Erik_ 15 juni 2017, 15:38

It took some digging, but we have resolution.

Phone numbers in the +319 range used to be paid numbers only. Our system does not allow call forwarding to paid numbers. As such, this still includes the +31970 M2M range of numbers. Feedback has been sent asking if they can look into adding an exception for the M2M range only. However, I can't say, nor give guarantees, if they will do so.

In practice, it's not possible.,
Bekijk origineel

27 reacties

Reputatie 7
Badge +28
Hi Alexios, welcome to the forum! As M2M numbers, the 097-series is not designed for regular voice connectivity, unlike foreign numbers in general. As such, call forwarding might not work as that uses regular voice connectivity.

What happens when you try to set up the call forward?
Hi Erik,

Thanks for your quick answer.
The interesting thing is that I can actually dial our 097 number from my 06 SIM card and the voice call works perfectly. And I can also perfectly dial my 06 number from our 097 number.
However, when I, for example, execute **61*+31970XXXXXXXX*20# or **61*0970XXXXXXXX*20# I get the "Connection problem or invalid MMI code" message. The same code works correctly with 06 or landline numbers.

Regards,
Alex
Reputatie 7
When the 097 and the 06 number are at the same mobile provider (KPN) then its possible to call each other.
When the numbers are not with the same provider, or you try to call a landline from the 097 number you don't get connected. And vica versa.
Or when someone with. for instance, a Vodafone number calls to your 097 number there also does not come a connection.

097 numbers are only linked with (numbers from) the same mobile provider.

Forwarding to a 097 number wil result in a lot of missed connections from phonenumbers which are at other providers of landlines.

097 numbers are for mobile internet only. So there is also no voicemail possible on those numbers.

Call forwarding from and to 097 numbers is NOT possible.
ACM is not totally agreeing on that, @PeterG. On their website (https://www.acm.nl/nl/onderwerpen/telecommunicatie/telefoonnummers/telefoonnummers-gebruiken/06--en-097-nummers-voor-spraak-en-data/ in Dutch) it states that human to human and human to machine communication is allowed. Examples given are calls from an elevator or intercom calls and both are voice calls. I didn't read all the formal documents, but I think the question of TS is a valid one.
Reputatie 7
When you read that correctly it does nog imply spoken communication.
Reputatie 7
Badge +30
Human to human, in that article, means "on call" connection where i can take my device and it instantly dials @PeterG who, for example, also has the same device. The calling is automated.

It is not about a personal phone etc
Not personal, but it can be a voice connection. And a Voicemailsystem is a machine.

But I'm not an expert on this matter.
Dear PeterG,

Our 097 SIM cards are from KORE Wyless (Libertel network).
KORE allows spoken communications on 097 numbers and we use them, indeed, in our elevator installations (that's what Qris said) together with CSD-data calls 🙂 So 097 numbers are definitely not for mobile internet only, which makes perfect sense in my view.
Moreover, just FYI, from our 097 numbers we can dial any number landline or mobile. I tried all Dutch operators and it worked. And we can also make voice and CSD calls abroad to different operators! Awesome, isn't it?

Though, you're right in one thing: our +3197 numbers sometimes cannot be dialed from some operators. But from my personal 06 mobile number from KPN I can dial all of our KORE 097 numbers. KPN allows me to dial 097 number but does not allow to set call forwarding. That's why I am wondering why such limitation exists, because logically it does not make sense.

If I rephrase it, we do not mind if somebody could dial our elevator :D
We can handle it ourselves inside the installation, just do not make restrictions when it is not necessary.

Regards,
Alex
Qris, I completely agree with you.
Reputatie 7
097 nummers mogen communiceren met één bepaald spraaknummer. De alarmintercom in een lift (ook 097) is zo'n voorbeeld.

097 numbers are alowed to communicate with one 'normal' phonenumber. For example the intercom in an elevator. That's a connection to an alarm center.

@ Alexios.
H2H communication is possible if the 097 numbers belong to ONE GROUP. In your situation is that the situation.
Because the numbers are mainly for datacommunication (by law) there is no voicemail possible or needed on those numbers.

It is sufficient explained. Forwarding from and to 097 numbers is not alowed en therefor not possible.
PeterG,

I am familiar with our elevator the installations. If I take the SIM card from the elevator and insert it in my regular mobile phone, it allows me to dial any number. There are not limitations on dialing single alarm center number only, believe me. Such a limitation, if exists, could be a limitation of the elevator controller, and not the limitation of the 097 SIM card from KORE Wyless.

-
Alex
Reputatie 7
It is sufficient explained. Forwarding from and to 097 numbers is not alowed en therefor not possible.
ACM does not allow 097 numbers for normal calls / traffic.

. There are not limitations on dialing single alarm center number only, believe me
That's not what i said! They are alowed for use to call one automated number.
Indeed, there is no voice mail provided by KORE Wyless.

However:
First, nobody prohibits us having our own automated voice service/voice mail on 097 numbers. And we successfully have it.
Second, I just do not understand why call forwarding to these numbers is not possible. Call forwarding does not automatically imply usage of voice mail. It is just call forwarding -- basic functionality of a phone exchange.

It definitely sounds like a gap in the legislation, which each operator interprets in its own way.
Then the question is how can we setup our own automated voice service which will be accessible for call forwarding from Dutch cellular operators (or at least from KPN).

Regards,
Alex
Reputatie 7
First. ACM does not allow use of 097 numbers for speach with more than one number (097, 06 of other). If KORE knows you are doing that, they can get a fine from ACM.

Second, because they are only alowed for connecting devices to the internet, forwarding is nog nescescary en therefor not alowed.

The way your company uses the 097 numbers is NOT allowed by de rules of ACM!

You would not have the problem mentioned in your topicstart if KORE had given you the proper 06 numbers. Those are for speach (!) and internet. 097 are for internet and alarm functions. Not for calling the whole world.
  • If you have a problem with that contact the A.C.M.
KPN does not make the rules.

Then the question is how can we setup our own automated voice service which will be accessible for call forwarding from Dutch cellular operators (or at least from KPN).

Regards,
Alex
Change the 097 numbers to 06 numbers. KORE can do that for you.
Thank you for the replies. I do not say anything about KPN, I just wanted to clarify the situation because it is rather vague. The problem is that we did not find any operator in the Netherlands which has a CSD support on 06 numbers. We do not need packet oriented mobile data service. We need both CSD support and voice services in a single SIM card only. There are not much choice for such conditions, especially when we need only a small amount of such SIM cards.

ACM definitely over-regulated the market.
I suppose that KPN as the biggest telecom have certain influence on making the rules.
Reputatie 7
With 06 numbers you can talk en use the internet.

With 097 numbers you may call ONE automated number, for example an alarmline. And use the internet.

I don't know what the abbreviation CSD (exactly) means but i think you can use 06 numbers therefor if you also whant speach calls to more than one number.
A 06 number supports calling to the "whole" world (speach) and to use the internet.

With a 06 you can do anything. A 097 has limitations by law when used.
CSD (or so-called data calls) stands for Circuit Switched Data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_Switched_Data
PeterG,
I got your point. Thank you a lot for the clarification.
Regards,
Alex
In this ACM document (https://www.acm.nl/nl/download/publicatie/?id=16001 again in Dutch) on page 6 is stated:

"U mag wel spraaktelefonie leveren met 097-nummers. Omgekeerd mag u geen
06-nummers gebruiken voor M2M-toepassingen omdat deze gebruiksvriendelijke
maar schaarse nummers gereserveerd moeten worden voor mobiele (spraak)
telefonie."

Short in English: You can use 097 for voice telephony, but not 06 for M2M. Again, I'm not an expert on this, but I think that @Alexios can use 097 for the purpose he described in the topic start. The limitations are with the 06 numbers, not the 097 numbers.
Hi all,

Just some updates,

1. As far as I know, the ACM initiative to move all M2M applications to the 097 numbers is very simple and it just because there are not so many numbers left in the 06 range.
Proof links:
https://www.kpn.com/zakelijk/mobiel/internet/097-datanummers.htm
https://www.acm.nl/nl/publicaties/publicatie/16353/Informatieverzoek-06--en-097-nummers/
https://tweakers.net/nieuws/96131/providers-mogen-tablets-geen-06-nummer-meer-geven.html

2. I did not find the documented rule that says that calling anywhere in the world (and as much as I want) from 097 numbers is prohibited. I pay for the calls, so what is the problem?

3. You can consider me stupid, but I still do not think that the reason for prohibiting call forwarding to 097 numbers is sufficiently explained or has any legal grounds.

4. Considering all the above, I still think that KPN does not allow call forwarding to 097 number just because it tries to avoid any potential problems with ACM or just because it misinterpret the rules. The usage rules from ACM for 097 numbers do not imply anything related to inability to setup call forwarding to 097 numbers. If they do so, could you please provide me a link to the official document? Then I can contact ACM referring to this conversation.
Thanks to Qris, I've checked this document (https://www.acm.nl/nl/download/publicatie/?id=16001) which does not say anything about the limitations for the voice calls.

P.S.
https://www.acm.nl/nl/onderwerpen/telecommunicatie/telefoonnummers/telefoonnummers-gebruiken/06--en-097-nummers-voor-spraak-en-data/
Let's consider this phrase:
"Human to Machine (H2M) Zelfstandig werkende apparaten die iemand op afstand instelt. Voorbeelden: beveiligingscamera’s en thermostaten."
Maybe I want my home thermostat with a 097 SIM card to change the temperature in my house based on the number of the phone calls which I've missed on my KPN number.
Why would you prevent me to do so? Where's the logic?

Regards,
Alex
Reputatie 7
I end my reactions on this topic
Thanks, PeterG, I've got your opinion anyway.
Reputatie 7
Badge +28
Fascinating topic, thank you all for your replies over the last few days. I cannot, at the moment, answer the questions posed. I will, however, see what I can find out about this. For that I'll need to approach some colleagues and ask some questions. As such, I won't get around to do so until Monday. I'll get back here as soon as I know more 🙂
Reputatie 7
Badge +28
While I don't have any answers yet, I have found a colleague who can look into this. For that I need your data, Alexios. You're getting a private message from me. Respond to that, and we'll get this looked at.

Reageer